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How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change?

How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change?

Postby infoseek » May 21st, 2011, 11:12 am

Hi,

It already took some time to try to figure out a relatively simple thing. It is perhaps hard to understand because it works on your installation. To understand what I mean please do the following:


1. Load any object into blender, at best an asymmetric one.

2. Display this object in top view with numpad 7.

3. Now I want to rotate the view with keyboard keys. I mean a stepwise rotation in small angles as provided by numpad 8 and numpad 2 keys. These two keys rotate the object in small steps from the front side to the up side, to the back side, to the down side and so forth and vice versa. Please watch this rotation. With this rotation you can completely walk AROUND an object. This is exactly what I want in the up and down direction.

4. Now I want the same for the left and right direction. There are two more keys for rotating the view: numpad 4 and numpad 6. Please watch how they work on your system. On my system these keys do not rotate the view in this way that I can walk AROUND the object. The object is rotated around the Z axis so that I always see THE SAME side. Who needs such a rotation? Normally nobody who wants to model a face, a body, a house, a car or a landscape wants to rotate the object upside down. Almost always you want to see the side or the back side of the object.

The first help for me would be to answer the question how numpad 4 and numpad 6 work on your system. Can you walk AROUND the object with these keys or do you always see the same side? I always see the same side and I want to change this. At first I want to understand if you see the same as me. If you can walk around an object with numpad 4 and numpad 6 then you will not understand why I want to change the behaviour of these two keys. Please tell me how numpad 4 and numpad 6 work on your system.


Please note that I want to control the rotation with keyboard keys. I know that I can also rotate the view with the mouse so don't recommend to use the mouse please.

Thanks for your help.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby SPARTAN-001 » May 21st, 2011, 1:16 pm

It does indeed work like that for me. I'm not quite sure why it does this, but it's not really that big a deal for me, because I use the mouse.
Also, welcome to DS! :wave:
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby IrascibleOne » May 21st, 2011, 4:04 pm

My 4 and 6 also rotate around the z-axis, as you described. As far as I know it has always been that way. I don't know if that setting can be changed to what you would rather have, as I searched for possible settings to change it and didn't find anything that would help.

I think the only solution would be to rotate the model itself 90 degrees so that the camera moves the way you want from the front view. If you go to the front view and do the same thing as you describe, you will get the camera movement you want, if I understand you correctly. You will have to constantly rotate your model if you want that kind of movement while looking at the top and bottom of your model, but for the other views (Front, Back, Left, and Right) numpad 4 and 6 will go around the object.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby infoseek » May 22nd, 2011, 7:04 pm

I must correct myself a little bit: Numpad 4 and 6 do not always rotate around the Z axis.

I think I simply found out the problem: Numpad 8 and 2 (or Orbit View Up and Down in the user preference settings) are bound to VIEW COORDINATES. Numpad 4 and 6 (or Orbit View Left and Right in the user preference settings) in the contrary are bound to GLOBAL COORDINATES.

On my installation I can move my objects arbitrarily in the space and I can always rotate the objects in the up and down direction with numpad 8 and 2 as desired. Numpad 8 and 2 always do what I expect because they rotate the object along vertical view coordinates.

What numpad 4 and 6 do depend from the current orientation of the global coordinates, especially from the orientation of the global Z axis. If it is in/out then the user always sees the same side. If it is up/down then the user can walk around the object.

This even mouse users should notice. With MMB up and down movements it is always possible to rotate an object in the direction of the movement, i.e. up and down as the user should expect. But what happens with MMB left and right movements depends on the current orientation of the Z axis. If it is in/out then the movement causes a clock- or counterclockwise rotation and user always sees the same side. If it is up/down then the object is really rotated in the direction of the movement and the user can walk around the object.

Do mouse users not notice that? They should see that MMB left/right movements cause different rotations. You must always keep track of your global Z axis in oder to know what will happen next. Or you always try again and again. This would make me crazy. With up and down movements this is not necessary.

An additional effect of this constellation is that the user cannot really freely move in the space because you can move the Z axis only up and down and never to the left or right side.

At first I would like to know if the users here can confirm the described behaviour. Then I would like to hear your opinion if this is can be changed in any way or if this is to be considered as a bug.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby SPARTAN-001 » May 22nd, 2011, 7:48 pm

Personally, I don't notice this at all. When I'm working in 3D, I'm so used to the ways that I need to move my mouse, that I really don't pay attention to what I'm actually doing to get there. Blender works in the same way as every other 3D program I've used with regards to 3D space navigation, software such as 3DS Max works exactly the same when you're moving around in 3D space. I guess I don't get what your point is about navigating using the mouse. It seems to respond the same no matter how you move the mouse, and it responds exactly the way it should, on any Blender installation I've used.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby infoseek » May 23rd, 2011, 5:47 am

Long time Blender users may have developed an intuition how they rotate a view with horizontal MMB movements or with numpad 4 and 6. Or they always have a look at the global Z axis.

I am new with Blender and it is very annoying to have different behaviours with vertical and horizontal MMB movements and with numpad 8/2 and 4/6 respectively. At least for new users it would be very helpful to have a way to get a consistent rotation behaviour.

Nevertheless I am still interested if users can explicitly confirm how I described vertical and horizontal MMB movements. To summarize it shortly: Vertical MMB movements are bound to view coordinates and do always rotate the view in that way that the user can walk around an object (in vertical direction). Horizontal MMB movements in the contrary are bound to global coordinates so that these movements rotate an object always around the global Z axis. If the global Z axis points to the user then an object is rotated in that way that the user always sees the same side (clockwise or counterclockwise rotation). If the Z axis points up or down an object is rotated in that way that the user can walk around an object (in horizontal direction). So the user must always have a look at the orientation of the global Z axis if he or she wants to know what will happen with horizontal MMB movements. Or the user has the appropriate intuition.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby SPARTAN-001 » May 23rd, 2011, 10:59 am

Horizontal MMB movements work exactly the same as vertical MMB movements. There is no difference. Both are based on the current viewport perspective, and both operate on view coordinates, rather than global coordinates. For me, when I started using Blender, I picked this up right away, and it seemed to be exactly the way I expected it to work.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby infoseek » May 23rd, 2011, 3:11 pm

If it is really true that BOTH vertical AND horizontal MMB movements work exactly the same and "operate on view coordinates, rather than global coordinates" then this would be really great.

I attach my configuration file. Would you download it and try if this is still true with my configuration file on your computer? If yes, then I have an OS problem or a similar problem.

Or would you upload your configuration file so that I can try this configuration on my computer? If it is still true with your configuration file on my computer then I can figure out the difference between both configurations on my machine.

I also want to give a precise step by step procedure with that the MMB and keyboard movements can be checked:

1) Activate turntable movement in user preference settings.
2) Press numpad 7.
3) Move with MMB horizontally or press numpad 4 and numpad 6.

On my machine the view rotates in that way that I always see the same side (rotation around the global Z axis or around the view Z axis). Both axis point after numpad 7 perpendicular in/out of the user screen.

This is NOT a desired behaviour.
Desired is: The view should rotate around the view Y axis so that I can walk around the object.

4) Press numpad 1.
5) Do absolutely the same as in 3)

On my machine the view now rotates in that way that I can walk around the object (rotation around the global Z axis or around the view Y axis) Both axis lay after numpad 1 parallel to the vertical user screen edge. Concerning the view coordinates the rotation axis is now the Y axis, not the Z axis.

This is a desired behaviour.

Perhaps you should check that procedure again. Please note that I am using Blender 2.57.1 r36339. Perhaps there is a bug in this particular version. Trackball rotations I don't consider here because this kind of rotation does move all global axis and no keyboard keys can perform it.

It would be very nice if you check this procedure again. If also 3) rotates around the view Y axis then please take my configuration file and check it again or upload your configuration file.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby SPARTAN-001 » May 23rd, 2011, 3:59 pm

Your MMB movement is indeed different than mine. I'm unsure as to why this is, because every other Blender installation I've seen does it where all MMB movement is locked to view coordinates, rather than global.
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Re: How numpad 4 and 6 work on your system and how to change

Postby infoseek » May 23rd, 2011, 5:31 pm

Did you say this after downloading my configuration file and starting Blender with this file? If you determined that with my configuration file then there is a configuration issue. This issue can be solved by reconfiguration.

Would you check both configurations and tell me the essential difference? Or would you upload your configuration file so that I can determine the difference for myself?
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